Welcome to this conversation with Gavin Andrews, Managing Director of Heartmath UK & Ireland

The following text is a transcription of the interview.

Matt Hatson 0:00
In this video, I’m excited to present a conversation with Gavin Andrews, who’s the managing director of heartmath, UK and Ireland. I’ve known Gavin for a number of years since training with him as a heart math coach. And one of the great things about spending time with Gavin is that he really practices the heart math way. Now in this hour long video, we cover a wide range of topics, including the latest developments in the heart math trials with the NHS. The trouble with well being wearables, Vegas nerve stimulation, heart rate variability, burnout, coronavirus, anxiety, emerging stress technologies, and the latest developments in heart math. It was a brilliant conversation. And I’m sure you’ll find lots of interesting insights in the next hour. And I’ve put chapters into the description so that you can dip in and out as you find useful vine in the description a 10% discount code that can be applied to everything on the heartmath. uk website. So be sure to head to the link, or to listen out for the code later on in the video. If you’d like to read a transcription of our conversation, then head to hatson. coach/GavinA. So, now Please sit back and enjoy an excellent hour of conversation with Gavin Andrews.

Gavin, welcome. Thank you for joining me.

Gavin Andrews 1:19
Thank you, Matt. Thank you.

Matt Hatson 1:21
How are you doing?

Gavin Andrews 1:22
I’m doing great. You’re not looking too good. There we are. Now you’re back on focus again. I’m doing good. Thank you. I think I hope I’m in focus. I’m sitting in focus. So very, very.

Matt Hatson 1:34
So how’s how’s things for you in the current state of lockdown and COVID? And all that

Gavin Andrews 1:41
there’s this strange, unpredictable times we’re living in? Yeah, things are good. I almost feel a little bit guilty in saying that I’m, I’ve been I’ve been doing really quite well. Actually, it does make me feel slightly awkward saying that. Because I know a lot of people haven’t been actually. But I haven’t part of that’s because of but you know, my own personal kind of practice and stuff. And part of that as well is because I feel that we can help a lot of people in the type of work that we do and other work that you do as well as some, you know, there’s a lot that we can do to help. Yeah, so I’ve been doing okay, and lots of ideas for things popping up. And lots of interesting stuff coming out of heartmath in the US as well, which is encouraging. So I’ve been doing Okay, thank you. Yeah, I would rather not go into another period of lockdown and stuff. But hey, look, there’s things we can control and things that we can’t. So we’ll deal with whatever comes our way. Absolutely.

Matt Hatson 2:34
Yeah, focus, focus in the right areas. So yeah. Tell me a bit about yourself and how you got to where you are now.

Gavin Andrews 2:42
Okay. Wow. Okay. Well, we won’t we won’t go all the way because I’m nearly 48 it will take us a little while actually. But um, so my original sort of back? Well, I first thought I’ve always been interested in kind of personal development. inclusive of all the kind of like, you know, big bigger questions in life, sort of what you might call spiritual, although non religious for me, actually. But I’ve always had a bit of an interest in that. And I’ve always been a big fan of science fiction reader and fantasy, read all that stuff. There’s always been a big part of me that sort of wanting to know, well, what’s it all about? And what can we do about it? And how can we make it better? And you know, who am I and what to do with my life and that type of stuff. So that’s, yeah, that has always been a part of me. And then, I guess I lost a part. That part of me for quite a while I ended up spending a large chunk of my career in the media. And latterly, I worked worked for The Guardian, which is a lovely company to work for, but it Yeah, just one of those periods where I kind of, I don’t know, the last 10 years doing something that I look back on. I was like, why did I do that? I’m not really sure. It had some benefits. They were a nice company. But some. Yeah, so and then basically, what happened in order to take me out of that world was some sort of a crucible moment in life I, I lost my first wife to breast cancer. And it’s one of the things that sort of just woke me up. And you know, just one of those times in life when you get forced to sort of reappraise things. So that was really the route that led me to where I am now I decided to move out of my career, I was finding it for a better word meaningless, actually. And I had a bit of an existential crisis going on, and I had a period of grieving to do and I actually went back to university and I did a, an MBA, a business masters. And on the business masters, the thing I enjoyed the most was stuff about leadership. That MBA I did was heavier leadership side of things. So I got really into leadership. But I was less interested in how you might you know, just be a business leader and kind of boss people around and tell them what to do. And I got more more more interested in self leadership. So this site, you know, some of the theories around things like emotional intelligence and Authentic Leadership. And that really led me to the work that I’m doing now. And what how do you how do you really work out who you are? How do you work out what you want in life? And how do you go about making sure that you stay connected more often to who it is you really are. And so for me, that was the sort of emotional intelligence side of things I recognised, when I got stressed, I tended to lose my way. And I tended to do and say stupid things and not be the best version of myself. And when I was feeling good, you know, things tended to flow. And then one day, I went to a strange lecture about the physiology of leadership and some chap called Andy pelant, who’s my business partner, and I started talking about this thing called heart math. And he did a demonstration on a bit of technology. And I thought, Wow, that’s pretty cool that emotional intelligence actually is a theory. But this is this is a practice. This is a, this is something that you can do. And I’ve just had the evidence that these techniques actually have an impact, as demonstrated by this technology. So I was just instantly hooked to be frank, Matt, and I spent the next must have been about five years just by practising heartmath myself in terms of the techniques and I bought one of the old gadgets, the qpcr. Yeah, no, no, my psi, just like flashed red, blue and green, you know, and it was very basic, but but I, I liked it. And it, I like the fact that it It didn’t lie to me about how I was feeling. And I like the fact that he gave me that feedback on the technique, practice, you know. So, so yeah, I’ve been I’ve been practising the techniques with the biofeedback for a number of years, and I started to bring it into then I moved into university lecturing, and leadership and management, coaching and training and consulting. And I bought more of the heart math stuff in his sort of foundation stuff in the leader, painting. And it really resonated with lots of people. And I realised, you know, actually, if you can just get yourself into this state, the state that we call coherence, then, more often than not, not only will you be emotionally intelligent, but you’re also going to be more creative and empathetic, you’re going to come up with better ideas, you know, more innovative, you’re gonna be better listening to people. So, yeah, it just all sort of flowed from there, really. And then it wasn’t until 2012 that I formalised my relationship with heart math, and Andy and I become business partners. And that’s when actually we became heartmath, UK and Ireland. So it was actually quite a long, long journey. Who was that advert in the 80s? The Remington advert? You know, I like the company so much, I bought it. So Well, I didn’t buy heartmath they still, they still own themselves. But yeah, I’m the I’m the lucky guy that that represents them over here. And looks after the selling of the products and the delivering of the training and the spreading of the message. Really? Yeah. Oh, there we go. potted history.

Matt Hatson 7:53
Yeah, really interesting. I, I was reflecting on your, your sort of experience with the Heartmath. I mean, I remember having early m wave buying an early m wave, I think when, when my kids were really, really young, and my youngest was quite ill. And I had a, I was running a business. And I was really crumbling under the, under the pressure. And I remember hearing about heartmath somewhere and buying and buying an exorbitant what seemed like an exorbitantly expensive fear kit with some lights on it. Yeah. And the focus is going to go and, and, and just feeling better. And I think you know, that there’s something about that there’s that moment when you something else starts telling you about how you’re really feeling. Which is pretty magical. And I you know, we’ve seen it so many times with people the first time they get that feedback, hang on back, you’re, you’re maybe telling yourself a lie of how you are, is is a is a really, really profound and something that that that started me really started me going off in this in this direction in terms of initially helped me very much through my own dark times. Came out thinking Hang on a sec, this is something that everybody was not everybody know this, and people use this. Yeah. Yeah. That’s, it’s extraordinarily geeky. So I take that.

Gavin Andrews 9:26
Yeah. You know, it’s like gadgets, and it’s good as well.

Matt Hatson 9:31
Yeah, so and so. How’s Heartmath Uk? Now what’s,

Gavin Andrews 9:36
yeah, good. So we, we Yeah, we’ve been in business since since 2012. And we initially focused on just a couple of things which was selling the products obviously, because that’s an important part of what we do. So you know, we sell them on Amazon, we sell them on our own web store. So that was that was one of the things we focus on initially was just building the market over here and then the other big piece was was getting people To be out there delivering it. So that was training coaches. So we, you know, heart, because it’s such a simple approach, you know, it lends itself to all sorts of applications, whether that be your kids test anxiety or behavioural problems through to things like sports coaching through to, you know, management, leadership coaching, or increasingly health professionals using it to either help themselves with their stress or help their patients with, you know, their conditions and empower them to take more control of their health. It’s really important to us that we get more and more people out there are people that you’ve trained with us, to spread the word and to use it in the world in which you have passion and expertise. So that was, yeah, that was we spent spent our first few years building that and got it up to a to a good place. And yet, we’ve, we’ve we’ve been going since then, I mean, it’s been your innovate innovation on the way so we, we no longer have the emwave, PSR handheld thing that you and I both bought, we, you know, things have moved on to smartphones. So there’s the Bluetooth sensor now that makes life a lot easier. And, yeah, in recent innovation really has been the whole weird heart thing, which is trying to take the message of heart based living, you know, connecting more with with your heart connecting more with the hearts of other people. And then enabling people to come together in small groups do practice, heart coherence, meditation. So that’s been a, that’s been a big passion of mine. And just getting that out there and getting we’ve got over 100 groups now in like 20 to 23 different countries. And so that’s a nice vehicle because he doesn’t, you know, doesn’t require you to be interested in tech or buy a piece of technology or anything like that is really just a way of helping people who were interested in connecting with the heartbeat more, I’ve got a sense of, I want to connect with myself, I want to connect meaningfully with others. And actually, in the current circumstances where we are having to separate physically, yeah, the whole things online as well as been great timing. So. So yeah, there’s there’s always a lot going on this. There’s other side projects and things, we’ll probably chat about those in a bit. And I’m very passionate about the power of art and music to help people manage their stress and stuff. So yeah, there’s times are good. And I think actually, what I’m seeing more and more of is that the medical world is taking more of an interest in this type of thing. It’s taken a long time. And that time has been frustrating. But on every coach programme that we’ve had over the last couple of years, we have always had someone from the NHS on on the programme. And really interesting on the last couple of programmes we’ve had as well, we’ve even had cardiologists coming on our programme. Oh, interesting. Yeah, really, and, and, you know, because their cardiologist, I assume that all cardiologist would understand HRV and coherence, and they don’t, it’s just not part of the training, which was a surprise to me. But of course, once they get an insight of this thing, you know, exists and is there, they get it very, very quickly, obviously, and what’s encouraging is to kind of blown away by what coherency is, and what it can actually do for you, you know, physiologically. So that’s something else that that’s, that’s been building and I’m very excited about and, and it looks like we’re going to have a couple of NHS, you know, independent, proper NHS clinical research projects running, using HRV biofeedback and inclusive of the Heartmath techniques as well. And if we think about what is going on in the NHS at the moment, and the fact that, you know, it’s getting harder for people to go into hospital, there’s, you know, longer waiting lists for things as well, we need to shift the model to one where we empower people to take a bit of control and responsibility for their own health. And so tools, simple tools, like self regulation, HRV biofeedback, that are cheap, and you know, have no side effects at all, but actually quite effective. I think, you know, they have an important role to play in what the new model needs to look like. So I cut a juggling all of these different balls and projects, which feels good, it’s exciting. Maybe there’s too many on the go actually.

Matt Hatson 14:21
Good. Yeah, I think it was really interesting point you make there in terms of the explosion in Technology, Health, measurement technology, and people are having smartwatches and being able to measure their stress levels. And that the knock on of that is people now have well being anxiety. So whereas before they blissfully ignorant that they were stressed. Now they know they’re stressed, and if they’re lucky, their phone tells them to breathe out a couple of times or something and they don’t have the skills and knowledge to go and do something about it, you know, they might have read, and I hit you, I’m sure you hear this all the time. prospective clients and I tried meditation doesn’t work for me. Yeah, it’s probably because you are so far off the window of tolerance, that the thought of sitting with your own thoughts is actually painful.

Gavin Andrews 15:23
Yeah, I think that’s that plays a large part in it for for many people. I think, also, unfortunately, a lot of people are expecting a quick fix and and meditation for most people will not be a quick fix is something that you’ve got to, you’ve got to give it a chance, you’ve got to settle into it, you’ve got to give it some time, you’ve got to give it some repetition. And, and of course, you know, if you do for 90% of people, meditation and mindfulness are going to be extremely beneficial. But unfortunately, we’ve got ourselves into a world where a lot of people aren’t prepared to, to give it the time and effort. And they do want a quick fix. And so that’s where some of these technologies can be more appealing, I think. But at the end of the day, there were no silver bullets, you know, there’s a will if you if you really want to take control of your life, and even some of these technologies that might, you know, zap the Vagus Nerve and give you an instant relaxation here, which can be really beneficial if you’ve got hangs up high anxiety, for example. But again, you you’re not learning a tool for yourself or skill for yourself, wait, you and I both know that you can activate that response for yourself. And for some people, it might take a bit more practice, but you can increase your own vagal tone. You don’t need to go straight down the route of zapping yourself and then really relying on that not to say that those things aren’t useful, because they are they have a place. So yeah, I think one of the things that Heartmath maybe has as a benefit is, you know, even if you don’t get the sense, or you can’t feel that what you’re doing is good for you or putting you in a different state, or for most people can’t feel to begin with, then the technology will tell you. So we do often find that we’ve had people come to us, you say well, I tried meditation, and I tried mindfulness. And it’s not for me, I can’t do it. So So what’s this and how is it different. And then when they have a gadget to look at. And they have something to do as into to focus their attention on the on a breath Pacer, and to focus attention on being told to feel pleasant feelings, but they’re getting the feedback in real time from the screen. It does seem to work for for group of people who need that instant feedback. And then what’s great, of course, is once you see that relatively quickly, you can begin to bump your score up, you know, just by getting the breathing, right, you can begin to get the score up. That’s an interest in instant validation. And it’s an instant reward for as well. So Oh, well, you know, in the space of just a few minutes, I’ve gone from a 1.5 to three. So this is great. I can do this, I can do this. And there’s the motivation to keep going with it. Yeah, yes, it works for him, you know, for a certain group of people who, particularly those who are interested in the tech and need the validation and the feedback.

Matt Hatson 18:03
Yeah. And I think that’s the great thing is that it in a balance is a trainer. And at some point, want people to say Hang on a sec, I’ve been I’ve now got that skill. I don’t need the trainer. And I want to use that skill before a big meeting. Yeah. Or when, when I would previously have an argument with someone and actually apply it. Use the inbalance to train your capability to get better at it. But don’t use it as a crutch like all the other technologies and say, I didn’t have time. I didn’t find time to zap my Veagus nerd this morning? I’m going to have a terrible day which is, which is the risk with all of this to say there is no, there’s no quick fix. And I don’t think there’s a free lunch either.

Gavin Andrews 18:55
There’s not unfortunately, there’s no and even with our stuff, you know, you you need to give it a good time. I mean, I personally think based on my own practice, but also with you know, people I’ve coached and trained. I really think it’s 20 minutes a day of practice that that makes the big difference that really hardwires this in, I mean, look, you know, three minutes here and there is better than nothing. But to really reap the rewards you do need to be prepared to put in that type of effort. I mean, the nice thing with our stuff is you could sit on the sofa and you know, regulate your breathing was looking at the biofeedback every now and again while watching TV, you could do that. So you don’t have to go and sit on a Zen cushion cross legs, you know, anything like that. But it isn’t magic. It does take effort. And the important piece as you just said is is not just doing it for the 20 minutes a day to get your booze that will that will do your lots of good It will balance your autonomic nervous system it will give your amygdala rest it will get into prefrontal cortex it will change your hormonal balance that’s all good But what’s even better is to then as you say, you know, when you don’t have the sensor on you and you go into the meeting, or the email pops into the inbox, and he go are God not that person again, you know. So then in real time, practice the techniques, whether it be the, you know, the coherent breathing by itself, also do the little bursts of bringing in the positive emotions before the meeting after the meeting to rebalance, because you’ve got stressed, you know, that integration into daily life. That’s when it really, really makes a difference, I think. And that requires a commitment. It’s like it’s a lifestyle, then. And although there’s very few times when I might go a day or two without practising this in any way, you know, what if that does happen to me, for whatever reason, I notice it, I find it to be uncomfortable. But that’s quite good, then because it’s, it feels uncomfortable. So then it’s the reminder to me is because I’m not doing my practice.

Matt Hatson 20:57
Yeah, yeah, you’ve got that awareness. You know, detailed awareness of your of your state. I mean, I, I think one of the things, I know yourself, you need to have got to a certain tipping point to recognise you need to do something about it. My own my own experience was, it took me burning out, to realise that that wasn’t the way. And and that actually, I think, to get to the top end of burnout, or the far end of burnout, you’ve had to become pretty numb to what’s going on.

Gavin Andrews 21:35

Matt Hatson 21:38
And so the signals, you know, you see me talk about techniques such as Heartmath, and a lot of people in the room, particularly men, it seems to me, but will stiffen and go, I handle stress really well. And I’ve seen this on trainings, and I’ve gone, you’ve got the same biology as everybody else. The likelihood is, you are more numb to your stress than everyone else. And they look at me, decide whether they want to stay in the training course. Uncomfortable thing to be told, yeah. is there’s no such thing as handling stress. Yeah, that regard. The only the only general exception I’ve seen to that is when I’ve got and I’ve seen a triathlete on a course. And you put out your Heartmath on those. And those guys, if they are regular trainers, those guys have got beautiful HRV they get into coherence like that.

Gavin Andrews 22:31

Matt Hatson 22:33
So I tend to like not those as demo subjects, because they make really lousy subjects.

Gavin Andrews 22:39
Yeah, they do. They say, yeah, quite often in a room, there’s someone who’s just like, then chilled out anyway, it’s just a genetic thing, or like you say it’s a sports thing. And a huge part of their sports training is that they know how to manage their state and self regulate. And so yeah, but for those others, some of the the sort of corporate athlete types, and it does tend to be men, like you say, unfortunately, who have this perception that, well, stress has got me where I am. And it’s my ability to kind of handle all this stuff that makes me strong and successful. And it’s like, No, you’ve kind of got there in spite of all of that, actually. And it’s now it’s just wear and tear, and you can’t be can’t keep doing that forever. That’s where the burnout comes from, of course, is these people often say to themselves, no, I’m strong I can I can handle this. In some ways, it’s maybe even their mental resilience that gets them into trouble. Because the mind keeps telling them, you Okay, you’re a key, keep going, you just got to do this. You just got to do this. And they’re not hearing the body. Yeah, they’re not, they’re not recognising, you know, the information that’s coming this way. Which you and I both know, there’s more information that comes this way to the brain than the brain to the rest of the body, and they’re just not getting those, those signals those cues. And then eventually, the body will just take over and go stop. And that’s when the burnout happens. And unfortunately, we do see more and more people finding themselves in that state don’t ways, it’s more and more common in, in society. And, unfortunately, as well, I see quite a few people who, who sort of bounced from burnout to burnout, not even learning the lesson. So I’d say you know, you’re you’re maybe in a minority of someone who’s been there, seen it, experienced it, and recognises I don’t want to go there again. And so you’ve made a lifestyle change.

Matt Hatson 24:31
Yeah, I mean, that’s an interesting one. I my best guess is that I burnt out three times.

Gavin Andrews 24:38
Okay. So it took you three times to learn the lesson.

Matt Hatson 24:41
Yeah, yeah. Not that smart, not that smart. But I think, and I, I could go there again. You know, I think I am wired that I’m wired that way.

Gavin Andrews 24:55

Matt Hatson 24:58
Really goal focused, tendency towards Alpha behaviour, all those characteristics, I’ve got them, but I’m aware of it now and I manage it. And I’m more aware of the signals. So when it does when I when I, when it does, I, I recognise it and say, Hey, hang on a sec. I recognise this, I recognise this, I might only be at a very early stage, but I recognise I got to do something. Yeah. I’m also worst combination of that I am a I love coffee. Yeah. And, according to my DNA, I’m the I am genetically predisposed to not handling it very well. And so I can, you know, as I start to increase my caffeine intake again, hang on a second.

Gavin Andrews 25:45

Matt Hatson 25:45
You know, that, for me, that accelerates it. So I think I’ve become more aware of it, through learning these techniques, and practising and again,

Gavin Andrews 25:53
you know, I think that’s it, I think that’s as good as it gets, I think, you know, unless you are a monk living in a cave, and you don’t need to worry about anything else in life other than meditating, and someone else is bringing you your food. I think for those of us that live in the real world, it’s kind of, it’s very challenging to be on an even keel all the time. And I mean, you know, I’ve been doing this stuff for over, I’ve been practising armour for 13-14 years now, you know, I get stressed. Life is gonna throw challenges our way, you know, I have a need to achievement, I want to achieve things as well. And I want to be busy, and sometimes it gets too much, but so long as you have the self awareness. So long as like that window is relatively short, where you recog where you before you recognise No, I’m actually putting myself under too much pressure here. I can I can sense that I’m beginning to tip off in terms of performance and all of that. I’m getting a bit of information. Where’s the where’s the bad back? Why is that happened? You know, what, well, is there ache and pains in my shoulders at the moment? As long as you get those cues? And you act on them? Then I think, really, that’s what it’s all about? Because you’ll you’ll kind of you rebalancing yourself relatively frequently. The dangers are when you’re out of balance for too long.

Matt Hatson 27:07
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And trying to make sure also, you’ve got some support systems in place, which is really difficult at the minute. And that people are looking out for you, whether it’s been in your team and your family. And also, I found, the process of looking out for others increases your ability to look out for yourself, once again, is challenged in the current climate,

Gavin Andrews 27:33
yet it is, it is the whole year separation thing, the zoom thing, the bouncing from zoom meeting to zoom meeting. And, you know, the propensity to be never really quite fully present. It’s just like, okay, meeting, let’s get this done. Let’s, you know, talk business, let’s do that relationships, I can slip in the way that we’re working at the moment. But it doesn’t have to, and I and I think I know that zoom can be, it can facilitate really strong and deep connection between people. But you have to work at that you have to. Yeah, you’ve got you’ve, you’ve got to make sure that you are paying attention. And actually, my Heartmath practice enables me to do that. Because if I’m in my heaer, then I am connected with others. I, I do want to listen, I do want to notice, I want to hear I want to ask the question. I don’t want to dive straight into business, you know, and so it is going to be more and more important. I think it’s em what’s the old Alvin Toffler Future Shock, quote, you know, the more high tech, the more high tech, the more high touch and we’re all having to be more high tech in the way that we’re engaging with each other through zoom etc. And I do think that we therefore also need to be more high touch as in the making sure the human side stays as one of the reasons why I’m very passionate about We Add Heart actually is because the whole purpose of it is to bring people together in a Zoom Room to actively feel care and appreciation and compassion for each other and for yourself. So you know, you’d like to sit in there for half an hour basically feeling the feelings actively for each other and for self and, and it’s very, very powerful. And if we have got, perhaps, you know, a six month winter of unfortunately, if not full on lock downs, then restricted ability to socialise, then I think the more people who can actively use zoom to connect in a meaningful way, not just a superficial way, then we could keep ourselves in a in a good place. We can still have connection, even if we can’t be in the same physical space as each other.

Unknown Speaker 29:45
Hmm, yeah. I’ll put a link to the We Add Heart website in the description.

Gavin Andrews 29:51
That’d be cool. It’s open to anyone to join the group says, you know, they’re popping up all over the place now. So even if there’s not one in your area, actual location, there’ll be one within, you know, 50 miles or so it doesn’t matter if it’s online anyway, you could join someone’s group in America, we don’t mind just just join a group, you know?

Unknown Speaker 30:09
Yeah. So you mentioned previously about your love of combining music and art. And that’s consolidated in. Am I pronouncing it right Syntropy?

Gavin Andrews 30:21
Yes, Syntropy, Syntropy. So it seems to be a bit of a side project. I was I was hoping it might be something that my us friends might be interested in. But they’ve got their own interest. So it’s not it’s not a it’s not a Heartmath project. So yes, so Syntropy, it’s one of those things that just kind of popped up and flow during the lockdown, actually. And so a friend of mine, Ali, she’s one of our coaches that she’s a Heartmath coach, she’s an artist. And she had created an installation, which use heart rate variability to power the installation. So you, you’d go in, and you put emwave on your ear. And then the feedback from the heart rhythms would would change the installation in terms of the colours and the kind of movement and frequencies of the display. So um, so she’s pretty, pretty cool in terms of the artists. Oh, yeah, it’s very cool. And she contacted me was saying, I quite like to make some breath paces and so that’s a great idea because actually, we need to balance breath pastries. You know, we’re revamping the inner balance app, it’s going to be much more engaging was recently looking a bit a little bit tired. And I thought we’ll also know what about people who don’t want the technology be quite nice to create breath paces. I’ve had this idea about geometries as well, I just like geometries. And I think I’m interested in kaleidoscopes and things like that Joe, Joe Dispenza into some of that, that type of stuff. So we were just talking about this idea of maybe using art to pace breathing and then at the same time another friend of mine mark, who makes chill out music like 8D Chill Out music. So talk to me about by normals and said you know about them without without really know about them, I’ve got some vinyl stuff, and I find it to be quite good for getting into certain mental states. But if you look into binaurals, and why not look at coherence, because as far as I’m aware, not many people are using coherence in binary. So anyway, you know, he he makes proper music is that the 8D and the binaurals is a more subtle aspect of it. And I just Well, why don’t we just get together and see if we could do something. So Mark had some tracks anyway, and, and Annie listen to the tracks, and she thought, well, we’ll create some art, she found some new way of creating these lovely geometries, and, and it just worked so well. You know, I’ll briefly describe and then you can tell me what you think of them. But they’re, they’re these, just these beautifully exquisite geometries that sort of emerge over five minutes. And they’re wonderful to look at, I think, this kind of psychedelic in a way they really somewhere, rather, just chill out music. And it’s really beautiful. But it’s not too obtrusive, or, you know, it’s not not taking too much of your attention. And the 8D works nicely in terms of kind of moved around in your head a little bit. And the by normals have a subtle, but they do a bit as well. And so we created one and we just saw something in this so that we decided to set up a separate business Syntropy partnership to create Syntropy state. So we got eight of these things now, only one of them’s a breath Pacer, actually, and that’s quite subtle, the rest of them are designed just to take you on a bit of a five minute relaxation journey. And we themed them around energy centres, and he’s very intuitive in the way that she does her art. Um, yeah, we just always get them out there. And so we, we share them with some, some coaches, and then we just put them on the website for sale 19 pounds they’re pretty cheap. We got some phenomenal feedback from people. So we think we’re onto something and the plan actually is we’re going to turn them into an app and, and then curate artists and musicians to, to come in and to contribute. So the idea is you’d have all sorts of different types of art and maybe photography and film as well. And a different you know, you’d have some maybe you know, like electronic music like we’re using at the moment or you might have you know, real instruments acoustic or you might even just have like a harp just playing a note or something like that, but with the visual and they Yeah, they do you don’t need to do the pass if you just sit and watch it as you know and but for some people that seem to be powerful, so I don’t actually know what what experience you had and what do you think maybe this is asked but yeah, you might want to diss them I don’t know.

Matt Hatson 34:32
I know I so. I’m currently working out how to do a video on them. Okay, yeah, so I’ll do a video on them. I think they’re really first of all I’m I’m annoyed that they’re better than the better than the one that I did for my coaching clients. Okay, you don’t want to use it. I did and I’ve got just got one on the YouTube channel which is a really rudimentary breathing Pacer. So my initial, my initial thought was annoyance because it’s way better. Oh, you know, I think, yeah. Don’t worry about my limited graphical skills. But I think they I think, I think they’re great. I think they’re really they’re really good. They they all elicit different feelings. You know, for me, I got the real personal thing. I love the breath pacer, I think it’s really important that that people have access to a breath Pacer that isn’t in abundance. Either they can’t afford it, which is definitely an issue increasingly, I think. Yeah, definitely I and idea of being able to get into coherent little, just a little helping hand in coherence, you know, people still use my rudimentary one. And it’s great, because it means they get that experience of what it’s what it’s like. So I think that’s great. And then I think that is giving people a reason to stop. is one of the is one of the real challenges. And I think it, it gets your attention. And then you start to, you know, feel and experience it. And it’s interesting, because I spoke recently to Stefan Chmelik, who is the inventor of the Sensate pebble.

Gavin Andrews 34:48
Oh, yeah.

Matt Hatson 35:17
You know, and he’s his primary drive to that he’s he’s been experimenting with sound for decades in terms of how sound affects the nervous system reaction and things calm. And the idea that there are a lot of people out there who just never stop. And so the idea of giving them something to stop with, in the way that that’s one of the things that Inner Balance does, yeah, I think I think the videos also give people a good reason to stop. You have to do anything. Yeah, we’re all we’re all masters of watching the telly. Yeah, we’re not asking anyone to develop a new skill, there is an entry point for stopping and taking a moment and noticing what effect things have on you. I think that’s fantastic.

Gavin Andrews 37:04
Really, that’s good to know, yeah, we had a lovely bit of feedback from a customer who said that she uses them to give herself a little treat. So she, she’s like, well, I don’t really want to do my emails, or my camps, or whatever it is. And but if I do, then then I’ll give myself five minutes of one of those, essentially, states videos. And I thought, That’s quite nice. Actually, I like I like the idea of that. And I think one of the ways it works for people as well as that, you know, we all have too much screentime, I appreciate that. When we can say to people, you shouldn’t, you know, go away and do something else. But if you’re sat in front of your computer, and you just want a five minute pause between answering your emails and engaging in a presentation, then actually, they work really quite nicely, because although you’re at your screen, they are inducing a relaxation response, and they are disengaging you from whatever it was you were doing before. And I mean, you may have experienced it. So let’s put you in a little bit of a trance. And these will drift off somewhere for a bit. And and I think that’s a you know, again, it’s valuable there another tool that people can use just to get a little bit of downtime a bit of rest, before they then engage in the in the next task. So So what’s your space really excited? We’ve got the apps in development at the moment. And the idea is that we will grow it to become a library of all sorts of different nice art and music, relaxation, AIDS. Yes. Simple.

Matt Hatson 38:28
Yeah, I think they said would be an interesting angle, if we’re in this for the long haul, which is what it’s increasingly looking like, you know, maybe companies ought to be providing those sorts of things in there to stop the back to back Zoom calls.

Gavin Andrews 38:43
Yeah. Well, that’s one of our ideas is Yeah, that might be it might be a, you know, potential market. I mean, the businesses they not not to kind of, again, diss other other approaches to things. So I can be quite easy for organisations to take the route where they say, Well, you know, we’ll give everyone headspace, we’ll give everyone calm. And that’s us doing our bit. And it’s like, well, that’s great. And it’s a good thing, and they should do it. But actually, you know what, most people don’t sustain their use of those things. You know that after 30 days, only 4% of people apparently is still using those types of approaches. that hadn’t been commonly known until someone did some research for TVs at university, but that’s the reality of it. And so, I can do membership in February. It’s like a gym membership. And it’s also like gadgets, I appreciate that, you know, I’ve bought gadgets and I don’t use them consistently. And so what I think’s important actually is that there is a portfolio of tools that people can use. So yeah, give people ago, a headspace and calm and if it works for them, and it sustains brilliant, but it is not going to work for and be sustained by most people. So they need another tool, and I’m not suggesting that it’s entropy states. He’s gonna necessarily have a, you know, a usage beyond a certain percentage of this, you know, it’s normal, what’s the average person only uses five apps, but they’ve got, you know, 10s of them on their phone. So this is just normal for the world we live in. So yeah, I think organisations need to get a bit smarter about what they’re offering in terms of well being. And not just taking that approach of, well, we’ll give everyone a mindfulness app, we’ll get someone to come in and teach a yoga class a couple of times a week, and we’ll do some salsa dancing and other people could go for a lunchtime run. We’ve got all the bases covered, you haven’t. And now you’re asking people to work from home. And people have been maybe done and so there’s people who were left behind work from home or under high pressure. And they need more help and assistance. So I think the organisations need to be looking at some some of this other stuff. Make it easy for people to fit into their day. So five minutes on your computer while you’re at it. Great. Yes, people need gonna need more help. More high tech, more high touch? Yeah,

Matt Hatson 41:08
I got high tech,

Gavin Andrews 41:10
high, high touch. That’s really cool. Alvin Toffler not me said any.

Matt Hatson 41:16
Pretty cool. So in terms of Heartmath, see, when they’re all back in back in the office now, are they?

Gavin Andrews 41:25
Yeah, so they had a bit of a scare themselves with the California wildfires, and they were evacuated, they were out of their offices for over three weeks. And then actually, you know, going back, they thankfully, they’re, both of their offices survive, which was, when you look at the burn zone, I mean, a miracle really. And, and, thankfully, Obama, unfortunately, a couple of members of staff did lose their home, but but everybody else’s homes were fine as well. So they’re back. They, they, I mean, I was incredibly impressed and humbled by the way they dealt with it. They were still when I was having zoom calls with with Howard, and rolling and some of the folks there and they were practising the techniques under the highest pressure, you know, they literally didn’t know whether their homes and offices were going to be burned to the ground or not. So that was a Yeah, it all about six weeks of uncertainty for them. On top of all of the the COVID challenges that they’ve had in California, where, you know, they, it’s been pretty full on there. But they’re back, they’re good. They’re working on lots of new stuff. So the main thing, a couple of a couple of things in the pipeline, there’s going to be a new online programme called at heart facilitator, which has been filmed last week, actually. So that’s going to be beautiful high production values. And it’s essentially, for people who want to learn how to master themselves, but would also like to share it informally. So it’s not like a coaching certificate or programme or anything like that. But if you’re say, you know, yoga teacher, and at the end of a yoga class, you wanted to share, half heart lock in, which is actually teaching heart lock in the whole pregnancy shot lock. And if you wanted to be able to teach that like properly because you learned it properly. And to say, I’ve actually got a little heart math badge, it says, You know, I can do this, then then that’s what it’s for, really. So that’s, that’s good, because it opens up heart math to a larger group of people and people who just want to share it informally, with what they’re doing. There isn’t in the inner balance app is in development taken a bit longer than we would have liked. But that will be completely overhauled. So we recognise that it’s a, you know, we’ve had it for a while it’s a bit behind the curve. And we need to we need a new user experience, we need it to be more engaging. So yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s looking pretty cool. And also some work being done with the global coherence app as well. So that’s the app that you can use for big meditations. And you can log in and see everyone around the world meditating together. And then everyone who’s got one of the unbalance sensors could actually be included in the, the recording of coherence. So we can actually look at, you know, everyone’s coherence level wherever they are in the world. And then we work that out on average, and see what the average coherence of the group is. So it’s a cool app. Yeah, we’ve had a few glitches, but that one, and now is in a new stage of development, and can’t really say too much about that one. But there’s this, this hopefully going to be a really cool application with that, which means that everybody could be measured. So not just people with a sensor, which would be wonderful. So yeah.

Matt Hatson 44:34
I have a strange reaction with the global coherence app. Yeah. I think my inherent competitiveness, I struggle a bit to put that to one side so you see who else is on there? And I’m, I’m trying to say stop looking at the average score and stop trying to beat everybody. I still have some work to do on that. My competitiveness.

Gavin Andrews 44:57
This is the this is the downside of the technology, yeah, you got to make the tech work. That’s I think that’s the problem, maybe the problem of society that we have as a whole is, when we make technology work for us. It’s great. It’s amazing. It’s awesome stuff, you know, being able to get a cab, just like that when you want one is incredible. But when we start to be impacted by here and compete with it, or it starts, you know, like social media kind of using us as a currency, to send us information and the world view and sell us stuff, then that’s when we have a bit of a problem. So yeah, that you know, the by feedback, it can be a problem. If you’ve got a very high need for achievement, and you want to beat your score all the time to dangerous, it could frustrate you. And of course, that’s not what we’re looking for. We’re looking for the opposite.

Matt Hatson 45:46
That’s a win. That’s a learning path, too, isn’t it? I know. It took me a long time of practising Heartmath to come to terms with the fact that each time I’m not always better than last time. Because things happen, you know, because I’m doing it after a busy day, or I have too much coffee, or you know, that lots of different reasons. And that’s okay. And you learn from that. And also, I I use muse. Yeah. And, you know, Muse is a really interesting, I think, the whole biofeedback bit about when, similarly to heart math, when you drop into the red, or in that case, when the waves start getting really loud, or the storm comes in. It’s okay. That’s, that’s all right. But you’re competitive, don’t beat yourself up. But clearly, the way I was, I’ve evolved is that competitive thing? It’s okay. It’s okay, you’ll get better by the fact that you correct and improve. Yeah, then by beating yourself up because you didn’t maintain a super high coherence.

Gavin Andrews 46:51
And that’s all part of the self awareness, self regulation, journey, if when you start realising that you’re sort of programming up till now predisposes you towards behaving like that, that it’s then at that point, that you’ve got the choice to be able to change it. But I was chatting with a mate of mine this morning, I go on Friday bike ride every every morning with a buddy and we chat. And he’s telling me that he’s come off Strava. So called Strava, because what I realised was I was just kind of like, you know, looking at beating my previous times, and seeing who else might have been my times, and I just thought, What’s the point in that kind of, on the level experiencing some stress as a result of doing something that should be really enjoyable, and, and having stopped being on Strava he’s finding it quite liberating that you can just ride his bike around and do what he likes. And you know, just have fun. So yeah, you know, they tech is great. I love tech, I buy too many gadgets. But we do need to be a bit careful that it doesn’t actually end up inadvertently causing us stress or anxiety or frustration.

Matt Hatson 47:51
Yeah, absolutely. So what what gadgets are you looking forward to, or you’ve got your eye on?

Gavin Andrews 47:57
Well, I’m looking forward to the Mendi, and are getting very, very frustrated and having to do lots of coherence around the fact that it keeps being delayed, I should have had it a couple of months ago. And so the Mendi is a bit like the Muse and it’s, but it uses what’s called functional near infrared spectroscopy is basically measuring the amount of blood in the prefrontal cortex. And it’s interesting, it looks like a quite funky gadget. I think it could work really quite nicely with heartmath. Because what we know is when you get coherence, so the heart rhythms go into coherence. But the other impact, we don’t actually measure is what’s going on in the brain. And I, I’m pretty certain that if I hit a high level of coherence, then the mendy will show the the activation of the prefrontal cortex. So I’m interested in that and and I’m interested in seeing if I can come up with any kind of ways of not just ways of coherence or ways of increasing the prefrontal activity and I just want to see their app and see what the exercises are. So looking forward to that one that looks pretty cool.

Matt Hatson 48:59
Really interesting when you’ve got that data and your heart rate and what’s going on in the brain. to synchronise that with visualisations. Yeah, but that that’s proper. That’s the tricky stuff for that.

Gavin Andrews 49:13
You could you could well wait. We’re also looking at the VR stuff for Syntropy as well. And the augmented reality? Yeah, so so many should be a good one. Oh, goodness, me, I can’t remember the name of it. But there’s a very simple gadget is the little pebble shaped thing that glows, breathpacer we

Matt Hatson 49:31

Gavin Andrews 49:32
Melo, mellow, whatever. I mean, that’s, that’s a very simple idea. It’s not expensive gadget but I just I kind of quite liked the idea of it. It looks nice like a little pebble in it and it and it paces your breathing doesn’t have coherence in it, which I think is silly, but it’s got other breath stuff in it. So that

Matt Hatson 49:49
I did speak to them actually.

Gavin Andrews 49:51
Oh, really? What did they say?

Matt Hatson 49:54
Thank you for your thoughts. We we decided on these breath paces where the optimum ones, but we’ll take your thoughts into consideration.

Gavin Andrews 50:02
All right? Well, they were wrong to leave out coherence, they should have done a bit more research. But anyway. And the other one is I’ve been using, I’m going to wave my ankle at you, if I may, I’ve got one of the it’s not I’ve not got an ASBO. It’s not a tracker, but it’s the Apollo.

Matt Hatson 50:17

Gavin Andrews 50:19
I’ve had it for a month and a half, I’ve got like, well, I’ve been doing an hour a day with it minimum, I’ve got 40 odd hours worth of use of it. This is a vise, this is a vibrating thing. So it’s got a number of different frequencies in it that purport to activate the autonomic nervous system in different ways, particularly the Vagus of course, and I don’t know, I just, I think it may be i’m the wrong person to try it, maybe it’d be better. Someone say, who had an anxiety disorder gave it a go, maybe they’d be able to notice the difference. And maybe it’s just because I’m quite used to the self regulation thing that I’m not, I don’t think I’m getting any benefit from it. I’ve given it a really good go. It feels quite nice on my ankle when it vibrates. But in terms of perceiving benefits, I just don’t think I have. It’s nicely made. It’s expensive. It is expensive. So yeah, but I think it’s you know, another one of the gadgets that I’ve purchased that I won’t sustain my use of enough probably end up giving it to someone who I think it might be more beneficial for and I’d be I’d be interested, I will find someone who who’s you know, got some anxiety and give it to them see what they think of it. I like the idea. And it does seem to be quite well researched. So like I said, I’m not I’m not saying it doesn’t work, because it may well be very effective for some people. But for me, I just don’t think it really adds a benefit to my, to my practice. And I’ve used I put it on whilst doing coherence practice, and it makes zero difference to my achievement levels.

Matt Hatson 52:04
Hmm. But I think it’s I think it’s incumbent upon us to look at these various bits of tecg because not everything works for everyone.

Gavin Andrews 52:13

Matt Hatson 52:15
The Nirvana zen, for people who are in that stuck state, who can’t even sit still long enough to use heart math, and I’m sure we both come across those.

Gavin Andrews 52:28

Matt Hatson 52:28
it’s a good place to start. It’s not going to teach them self regulation. But it does work. And it does work. I mean, either I noticed quite a big change in heart rate variability from that. Yeah, that is expensive.

Gavin Andrews 52:40

Matt Hatson 52:41
And the Sensate I found quite interesting when using with mainly just because it’s brings your attention to your heart.

Gavin Andrews 52:52
Because that’s where you wear it.

Matt Hatson 52:54
Yeah, there’s something really primal I think about that. Those vibrations on your chest. You know, that kind of it’s almost like the chanting without getting too into that. But you know, you look at his his vibrations.

Gavin Andrews 53:10
Yeah, I mean, like your drumming would have the same effect and humming and you know, monks chanting and stuff. It’s all doing a similar thing. It’s frequencies, isn’t it? Yeah. So I can Yeah, I can see how I hear good things about it.

Matt Hatson 53:24
As well, I wanted to show you that I’m testing at the moment, which is a beast.

Gavin Andrews 53:28
Oh my goodness. That’s huge, what’s that? It looks nicely made.

Matt Hatson 53:31
It’s a nice piece of German tech. It’s called the Beurer Stress Releazer. And it it’s got heat via heat and vibration and light and you can set it to whatever it’s a breathing Pacer. You can set it to whatever breathing rate you want. You can put it into coherent Yeah, lie down and you put it and it vibrates. It vibrates on the chest and you follow the Pacer.

Very nice. So it’s it’s not me it’s not measuring HRV is just pacing. Yeah. Does it do does he shine like something on the ceiling or something? Or is it just audio and and

he’s got it’s got binaurals, It it paces the light so the light comes on and off. So it’s got it’s a pacer, but multisensory Pacer. So the thing I really like about it is you can just lie down, set it to cohere and breathe in 20 minutes of just following the pace so without having too nice if he’s balanced whilst using it. I haven’t haven’t yet that’s a good that’s that’s interesting.

Gavin Andrews 54:39
We’ll see. We’ll see what he does to your scores. Yeah,

Matt Hatson 54:41
yeah, absolutely. I will do that sir. That’s good. I’ve not done a video on this. But it’s quite a nice nice nice bit of kit but it’s Yeah, German. So all of the anything you see on the internet is all in German. interesting bit of kit and yeah, about a hundred pounds. So it’s quite a nice Nice beer kit. I’ll do a video on

Gavin Andrews 55:02
Alex very well. very reasonably priced. 40

Matt Hatson 55:05
is Yeah, yeah. Big, not not quite as portable as the Sensate. But say something fancy again. Yeah, no, that’s so I think it is it’s incumbent upon us to know what else is going on there because it’s not a one size fits all. And, and increasingly people are going to these things and thinking they’re the answer, and then they turn out that they’re not. So who do they turn to? To say, what is the best?

Gavin Andrews 55:39

Matt Hatson 55:40
It’s the best thing because not everyone can afford to go for therapy or coaching or Exactly, yeah, we don’t know what’s wrong. Yeah. Which is, I think is more often the problem.

Gavin Andrews 55:51
Mm hmm.

Matt Hatson 55:52
Yeah. So yeah. I think we just keep watching and see what sort

Gavin Andrews 56:00
Loads of exciting stuff coming out and it is all getting a bit cheaper as well, which is, which is important. Yeah, it’s exciting times, I think there’s some there’s some amazing technologies out there. And I think VR in the AI stuff is going to be interesting as well, certainly going back to where you talked earlier about the NHS, you know, stuff needs to be delivered digitally. And so that’s going to create, I think, a, you know, real boost in innovation. And moment tends to be stuck around the whole CBT thing like, you know, using AI for CBT. He asked you a question you give an answer, then it asks you another question. And another thing, like, that’s fine. It’s great. But I think we need to be looking at other stuff that he’s engaging on the physiological level, like the coherence technology, and the you know, the Vagal stimulation and these other types of things as well.

Matt Hatson 56:47
Yeah, I think I think in VR AI, Eye Movement Therapy as well would be an interesting.

Gavin Andrews 56:53
Yeah, for sure. Within the VR,

Matt Hatson 56:55
yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So that’s definitely an area to explore. I wish I’m still an engineer and could do those things. I’d definitely planning to resist the temptation to go and buy a headset to

Gavin Andrews 57:09
reverse engineer it.

Matt Hatson 57:11
Yeah. I’m constantly having to resist those temptations. But for more, more gadgets.

Cool. Well, we’ve been talking things like first seems like there’s

Gavin Andrews 57:25
been a bit of bit of an hour for Yeah, I should give everyone a break from their computers. And yeah,

Matt Hatson 57:29
definitely, definitely. One thing I like, from you, Gavin is and so all the people who are watching who are in these uncertain times, who little, some little advices that you could give them in terms of helping them deal with that uncertainty in the situation they’re going through at the moment, one piece of advice, what would you?

Gavin Andrews 57:52
Well, the one piece of advice would be that you know, how you are feeling is, is dictating how you’re seeing the world. And so it’s not real.

And when we’re feeling stressed, we tend to view the world in terms of threat, and problems and confusion. And that’s why we then get stuck in this kind of vicious cycle of anxiety and worry. From Heartmath’s perspective, you know, emotions or reactions, but they’re also choices. And so my advice is to recognise that you have the power to choose how you feel some of the time. So if you notice that you getting anxious about something, one thing that you can control, because none of us can control the Coronavirus situation of crisis or whether our jobs might be in danger or, or whatever, or whether we might even have lost our jobs. One thing we can actually control is our breath. And when we control our breath, and we deepen and we slow our breath, we begin to change our physiology, we begin to change the way that the brain is operating as well. So if you’re feeling anxious, if you’re feeling worried, don’t worry about all that stuff. Just focus on your breath, slow it down, deepen it, try and get your breathing to around about six breaths a minute. For most people, that’s five seconds for an in breath, and five seconds for an out breath. But what’s more important is that it feels comfortable to you. So if you want to slow that up, or slow that down or speed it up a bit, that’s fine, but deepen slow the breath, get it nice and balanced, make sure the bellies relaxed as well. What that will begin to do is to create coherence in in the system. And what happens then is more information is going from the body, particularly the heart to the brain. And this ordered rhythmic information from the autonomic nervous system in the heart is sending a message to the brain, which is saying in effect, everything’s okay. There’s ordering there’s stability coming back from the body here, see you sort of tricking yourself, you’re hacking into the autonomic nervous system, and then that’s sort of tricking the brain into getting out of anxiety and worry. So the more you do the breathing, the more we begin to get the prefrontal cortex back online again. And when you do that, you begin to see the world differently, the feelings begin to shift and you begin to Say, even if it’s just a realisation, I can’t control this right now, or I need to be patient or I don’t need to catastrophize the world’s not going to come to an end, it begins to open up more. And as you begin to get the prefrontal cortex back online as well, you can then begin to regulate the emotion. So it’s possible then to shift your focus to Well, what what what can I be grateful for right now? You know, what could I be appreciative of, or, if I look out my window, what kind of put my attention on that might give me some sense of, or whether it’s the trees or the sky or whatever, you know, we we can choose our emotions. And if we can choose more of the pleasant positive ones, particularly the gratitudes, and appreciations and the cares of the love, that has an additional benefit, well, it increases our levels of coherence anyway. So again, it broadens even more the perspective we have on the world. But it also begins to impact positively, positively our hormones. So we get out of this sort of trap of the adrenaline and the cortisol. And we begin to get into a place where we can produce hormones that are more beneficial, particularly like the hga which we need for vitality and is compromised when we’re under stress. So we get some DGA rebuilds us. But if we can really tap into the gratitudes, and the loves and the cares, we, we might even get some extra oxytocin as well, which would be really beneficial. And then it’s really then about sort of, you know, getting this getting the seesaw out of the stress, you know, too much stress going on and getting yourself nice and balanced. Or if you really, you know, put some effort into this, you can begin to tip it the other way, where you’re getting more of a ratio of pleasant positive emotions, you’re taking more control over how you feel, you’re using the breathing to keep yourself in balance as well. And then you can even begin to shift those hormonal ratios, you know, quite profound way. So that would really be it’s like, you know, you don’t need technology to do that, obviously, you can facilitate it. But yeah, these times when things are changing very fast, we’re confused, there’s multiple narratives going on, very easy to go down some rabbit holes with all that stuff, is you can still control your breath, and you can control your emotions, what you put your focus on. And if you do that, you know, you’ll be in a good place to, to respond appropriately. And when we do come out the other side of all of this chances are you won’t be burned out, you’ll be in a good place still, physically and mentally. So that’d be the takeaway, you know, can’t control anything else, but you can control your breathing. And then you can control your feeling.

Matt Hatson 1:02:42
Yeah, that’s great, that’s brilliant. I think hopefully, everyone can take that away and give that a go. And if and when people want to come and find out more about what you’re doing, where do they find you.

Gavin Andrews 1:02:57
So come to heart, my stock code at UK. Simple enough. And we’re very happy to set up a little code for any of your followers. So if people are interested in our products, if they use the code, some coach people, maybe you could pop it in the details well, but if you use the code hatsoncoach, all one word doesn’t matter if it’s suppose all ours. Very Welcome to attempts and discount on any of our stuff. So there’s, there’s an offer there. And if you like the idea of a once a month, heart focus meditation, then check out weaddheart.com there’s a little directory there and you can put in your location and find a group near you. So so that’s weaddheart.com. And I’ll send you also a freebie Syntropy States relaxation aid that you can let people have the link and they can download that. So it’s an mp4 that they can download. So there’s a there’s a few things that might be helpful to people, as you’re dealing with. The other thing is that is the Heartmath Experience. Link. So that’s a free 90 minute Heartmath sort of e-learning programme. That, yeah, we can pop the link up for that and people can then they can experience it, the techniques and some of the scientific background as well. And that’s completely free.

Matt Hatson 1:04:11
Yeah, okay. Yeah, we’ll put that in the description. Also, I’ll put a link into your fantastic YouTube video that you did back at

Gavin Andrews 1:04:20
Of course it’s relevant again, because we’re going to look down again. So yeah, forgot about that one yet. Isn’t that little videos of stuff? Yeah.

Matt Hatson 1:04:28
Because that’s great, too. So lots of lots of materials to help people. And Gavin, thanks so much. I think this has been sort of really interesting for me and lots of good information to help people through the current situation out the other side, which is, which is going to happen at some point.

Gavin Andrews 1:04:47
sooner rather than later. Yeah. My pleasure. Thanks, Matt. I really, yeah.

Matt Hatson 1:04:53
Thanks, Gavin. Thank you.


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